Trump wins

....What do you mean "how long" ... ??? How about NOW? Time, once again, Alanm, to pull your head out of the hole and look around. Fracking is causing all kinds of problems, but the primary problem are the chemicals, they pump into the ground to bring the natural gas up from the ground, is poisoning the ground water with chemicals and making people sick, Alanm. Hell, they've even made movies about it (Matt Damon in Promised Land) and 60 minutes has even covered it a couple times, showing people's sink water "burning". Here, in NC, the Republican general assembly and our Republican governor signed a law 2 years ago saying that the fracking companies don't have to reveal what kinds of chemicals they are pumping into our ground water. It was to protect the frackers from being sued when everyone's well water gets soured and health issues arise. The Koch Bros. fingerprints were all over that bill.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse-coleman/fracking-rules-in-north-c_b_5352907.html
.....Besides the huge amount of fresh water they pump into the ground, they pump hundreds of chemicals from benzene, uranium, radium, mercury, hydrochloric acid, formaldehyde, ethylene glycol, etc etc ... and when the fracking is done, over HALF of what they pumped into the ground is non-recoverable.
....Again, there's plenty of information on this. I'm starting to become convinced YOU are the most uninformed individual there is when it comes to the environment ... you really ARE in a total state of denial.

....Here, read THIS on YOUR STATE ...
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/1409014/
....Pennsylvania has one of the highest concentrations of indoor radon gas in the USA. The huge amount of fracking is one of the issues with their radon gas problem. Radon gas is the 2nd largest contributor to lung cancers.
....Again, it comes to the issue of all the waste that is left behind that affects everything around it.

Maybe you should learn to read. I said how long is the epa going to take before they find something wrong with natural gas fired plants, not fracking.

Yes fracking is a way to get natural gas.

Fracking can pollute IF its not done correctly. However there has not been a documentated case of actual fracking itself causing contamination. All the cases of contamination came from spills of fracking fluid at fracking sites, not the fracking itself.

The burning tap water that you tout from 60 minutes was not from fracking....they hid that little tidbit. It was because the homeowners own water well was drilled into naturally occuring methane and that methane seeped into the water coming from the well.

Your claims about fracking contaminating ground water is false. Fracking wells are drilled well below ground water levels and none of the fluid they pump into the ground is anywhere near groundwater. Now the The fluid that comes back out of the well has the potential to contaminate if its not dealt with properly most of which is recycled for use in other wells or sent to a recycling plant of which several are now in operation for the sole purpose of recycling fracking fluid.

Out of the thousands and thousands of frackin wells in operation there is only one site which they are watching for potential actual fracking groundwater contamination. That was because they drilled a shallow well near a deep water aquafier. if it turns out that they did contaminate the ground water at that site then fracking companies will no longer be allowed to drill shallow wells in deep water areas.

Dont try and tell me i dont have any clue what i am talking about. I am an Engineer that deals in facts and not half truths spewed on the internet.

If fracking is done correctly and responsibly it is very safe, there have been issues but mainly due to improper fracking or handling of materials not the fracking itself.
 
Yeah, I guess 60 minutes fabricated their stories ... and the coal ash that they found in the rivers of NC that killed all those fish ... that wasn't the cause of the fish dying ... it was old age, right? You are one narrow minded lad, and if you have an engineering degree its not pertinent to this subject, and I'm starting to believe if you have an engineering degree its a fabricated one from sitting around a toy train track, with an engineer cap on, calling yourself an "engineer" ... toot, toot! ;)
 
If fracking is done correctly and responsibly it is very safe, there have been issues but mainly due to improper fracking or handling of materials not the fracking itself.

you really are nuts!.... I live in okl... a state where earth quakes was virtually unheard of 10 years ago.... now with the fracking we avg a little over one a DAY!

one a couple of weeks ago hit 5 felt all the way to Des Moines and Chicago!

big biz could care less about the earth or the quality of life... all they want is to be rich.... at the expense of the world!

you need to have your functameter checked... I think it is functed up!

either that or Glen Beck has been mind fucking you!
 
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Yeah, I guess 60 minutes fabricated their stories ... and the coal ash that they found in the rivers of NC that killed all those fish ... that wasn't the cause of the fish dying ... it was old age, right? You are one narrow minded lad, and if you have an engineering degree its not pertinent to this subject, and I'm starting to believe if you have an engineering degree its a fabricated one from sitting around a toy train track, with an engineer cap on, calling yourself an "engineer" ... toot, toot! ;)

So now your back on coal...i never ever said that fossil fuels never generated any waste......i said it not destroying the environment like you say it is, some dead fish in a stream doesnt constitute the death of the planet from coal ash

Not narrow minded at all, and my degrees are not made up but i dont need to prove anything to someone like you and its a hell of a lot more pertinent to this discussion than your background.
 
you really are nuts!.... I live in okl... a state where earth quakes was virtually unheard of 10 years ago.... now with the fracking we avg a little over one a DAY!

one a couple of weeks ago hit 5 felt all the way to Des Moines and Chicago!

big biz could care less about the earth or the quality of life... all they want is to be rich.... at the expense of the world!

you need to have your functameter checked... I think it is functed up!

either that or Glen Beck has been mind fucking you!

Well maybe you should educate yourself first of all, it is not been 100 % proven thats the cause.

Second its not from fracking, its from disposal of wastewater used in fracking, they inject it in deep wells and they think it could be contributing to the increase in earthquakes.

They have just recently started limiting the amount of wastewater allowed to be injected into underground wells and believe this will lesson the activity.

They also admit that there are many fault lines running thru Oklahoma and that some are not mapped leading to the belief that injection of wastewater may just be aggravating and already existing fault line.

I believe they will eliminate the wastewater injection all together at some point in the future. Look i live in one of the highest fracking areas in the country and have a fracking well less than half a mile from my house so i am not immune to to potential risks. I think people are quick to jump on fracking as a bogeyman when a lot of the findings just are not true.
 
Well maybe you should educate yourself first of all, it is not been 100 % proven thats the cause.
well maybe you should get involved in the insurance biz.... they say it's fracking... the oil comp said it's not.... like I said 10 years ago we never heard of an earthquake here and now we have one a day.... the FEDs stepped in and put a stop to some... last year we avg'd 2.6 earthquakes a day!
 
So now your back on coal...i never ever said that fossil fuels never generated any waste......i said it not destroying the environment like you say it is, some dead fish in a stream doesnt constitute the death of the planet from coal ash
....I kinda thought our overall discussion was regarding fossil fuels, Alanm ... I was simply reminding you of your positions on them. And this statement .... "some dead fish in a stream doesnt constitute the death of the planet from coal ash" is humorous. Again, we're talking about fossil fuel waste and what's being done with it. I guess a regular cough & shortness of breath wouldn't warrant you visiting your doctor to see if its lung cancer, in a state ranked second highest in radon, either, huh? I just know you're not as simple minded and naïve as you portray yourself. I gave you a link to a study in Pennsylvania that has determined that the high radon gases your state has is a primary cause of lung cancer. You DO KNOW that your state has the second highest emittance of radon gases, right? You do know that the studies indicate the high amount of fracking in your state is a likely cause of that, right? And this doesn't create any suspicions on your part regarding the safety hazards of fossil fuels. Maybe you don't even admit that natural gas is a fossil fuel .... ???

....Maybe you can make some sense out of these articles, Alanm ... do THESE tell you anything? This CEO of EXXON makes millions off of fracking, but when they start fracking near HIS property ... well, just read on. And ask yourself WHY he would object it being near HIS property!? Maybe one of your "bobblehead" friends has an opinion on it. Who knows!
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickung...but-frack-it-in-his-own-backyard-and-he-sues/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/02/22/exxon-mobil-tillerson-ceo-fracking/5726603/
But first, you gotta pull your head out .........pic_HeadUpAss.jpg .........
 
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Ok lets play your game.....lets start departing from fossil fuels....how?

You cant depart from something until you have another viable alternative and it doesnt EXIST right now. Wind, solar and hydroelectic wont do it. Nuclear maybe but that would require a lot more plants and we know how you feel about Nuclear.

Wind, Solar and others could do it, it has been squashed for so long we are decades behind in it's development. But the real problem is storage. Alternative energy are not "on-demand" sources of energy like fossil fuels are, it requires batteries to store the energy for later use. Battery technology in this country is so far behind it's sickening. Every time someone would have a brake through in battery technology the oil companies would buy the patents. A interesting documentary to watch is "Who Killed the Electric Car".

Hydrogen could replace Fossil fuels now, however it is hard to contain. It requires a high pressure tank. For an automobile the tank would be large and heavy. I know of a guy that is Off Grid 100%. He makes his own Hydrogen and stores it in tanks below ground. He even converted his Chain Saw to Hydro. The Utility company has tried to shut him down and ******* him onto Propane and electric but because he is not selling it or endangering others, there is not much they can do to stop him, but they are talking laws to prevent others from doing it. It's all about the money.

Nuclear is much safer than most like to think. and would be a huge break on the dependency of Fossil fuels. "Pandora's Promise" is another good documentary to watch about that. Liberal news sources like to paint a very bleak picture about Nuclear. Like 3 mile island, most would say thousands of people died when in fact,
No one died as a result of the TMI-2 accident. The accident caused concerns about the possibility of radiation-induced health effects, principally cancer, in the area surrounding the plant. Because of those concerns, the Pennsylvania Department of Health maintained for 18 years a registry of more than 30,000 people who lived within five miles of Three Mile Island at the time of the accident. The state's registry was discontinued in June 1997 without any evidence of unusual health trends.
Source, http://www.ans.org/pi/resources/sptopics/tmi/faq.php
And the documentary mentioned talks about this, and backs it up.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger wanted to place solar panels on every roof in Cal. Tied to the grid it would have reduced coal burning by 23%. Oil companies shut him down there. He also wanted to allow more Nuclear plants to be built in Cal, reducing carbon emissions by another 30% but the Left shut him down on that front. - so what the fuck is the country supposed to do???

Like you said, we can't just stop using Fossil fuels. I don't think we will get rid of them any time soon - however we could start making small changes that lead to bigger changes. To start with we need to stop thinking we need more power (Ar Ar Ar). Look at your local grocery store parking lot - how many people drive their gas hog 8 cylinder 4x4 SUV just to get Ketchup. What if electric cars were much cheaper (like they should be) We can't get rid of the 4x4, but we don't need to drive them ALL the TIME.
http://newatlas.com/elio-motors-84-mpg-three-wheeler/27454/
http://bgr.com/2015/12/03/france-cheap-electric-car-project/

95% of the scientists...really . There is no real evidence to prove that global warming exists....none! Other than the junk science they been spewing to try to convince everyone it exists. Its all cyclic activity that the planet has gone thru in its existance.

I am supposed to believe all these scientists when they try to predict the future environmental condition of the planet decades from now when they cant even predict if its going to rain 3 days from now.

I have no doubt that Mac could produce 5:1 articles in support of his claims, after all when you want to control people with fear you must flood them with speculations and half truths with a touch of lies. How does his favorite saying go? Feed people the same bullshit long enough it become true .... something like that.

The earth is getting warmer, there is plenty evidence of that. However what can't be proven is that Humans are the primary cause of it. Especially since it has happened at least 5 times before that we know of,
There have been at least five major ice ages in the earth's past (the Huronian, Cryogenian, Andean-Saharan, Karoo Ice Age and the Quaternary glaciation). Outside these ages, the Earth seems to have been ice-free even in high latitudes. (cut from an article) There is proof that the North Pole at one time, use to be a jungle. none of these Ice ages were caused by Human intervention. As you pointed out what we are seeing today could very well be a Natural course of the earth. (just to point out for those that fail to educate, there is global warming inbetween an Ice age.)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/earth/cause-ice-age.html

One thing to remember however is that nothing is ever gone - it only changes form. All the CO2 that caused global warming in the past is still here, it's only in a different form. Most of that form is stored as Fossil fuels. When we burn oil we are releasing those "stored" CO2s back into the atmosphere. So the real question becomes - Are the earths Natural "scrubbers" able to handle it? I don't believe that humans are the primary "cause" of Global warming, Nature didn't need us the previous 5 times. It's just a natural occurrence of things. But I do think we might be speeding the process as the earth is getting saturated with CO2.

What I find most ironic of it all is how the Left claims to be "progressives" and keep telling us that things change and we must change with them, but god forbid nature change - we must put a stop to it! I also find it funny that a good number of anti-global warming people live in inner city energy unfriendly homes and do very little to reduce their own carbon foot print, they just want everyone else to do it. The wife and I recycle/re-use almost everything but I know some green fanatics that waste like there is no tomorrow. (Al gore comes to mind).

Do we need to clean up our earth? - most definitely and I am all for it. Is global warming going to wipe out the human race? not any time soon - if ever.
 
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well maybe you should get involved in the insurance biz.... they say it's fracking... the oil comp said it's not.... like I said 10 years ago we never heard of an earthquake here and now we have one a day.... the FEDs stepped in and put a stop to some... last year we avg'd 2.6 earthquakes a day!

Its highly possible, like i said i really think they will put a stop to the wastewater injection then we will see if the earthquakes diminish
 
....I kinda thought our overall discussion was regarding fossil fuels, Alanm ... I was simply reminding you of your positions on them. And this statement .... "some dead fish in a stream doesnt constitute the death of the planet from coal ash" is humorous. Again, we're talking about fossil fuel waste and what's being done with it. I guess a regular cough & shortness of breath wouldn't warrant you visiting your doctor to see if its lung cancer, in a state ranked second highest in radon, either, huh? I just know you're not as simple minded and naïve as you portray yourself. I gave you a link to a study in Pennsylvania that has determined that the high radon gases your state has is a primary cause of lung cancer. You DO KNOW that your state has the second highest emittance of radon gases, right? You do know that the studies indicate the high amount of fracking in your state is a likely cause of that, right? And this doesn't create any suspicions on your part regarding the safety hazards of fossil fuels. Maybe you don't even admit that natural gas is a fossil fuel .... ???

....Maybe you can make some sense out of these articles, Alanm ... do THESE tell you anything? This CEO of EXXON makes millions off of fracking, but when they start fracking near HIS property ... well, just read on. And ask yourself WHY he would object it being near HIS property!? Maybe one of your "bobblehead" friends has an opinion on it. Who knows!
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickung...but-frack-it-in-his-own-backyard-and-he-sues/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/02/22/exxon-mobil-tillerson-ceo-fracking/5726603/
But first, you gotta pull your head out .........View attachment 1063737 .........
Dude....thats is utter bullshit and you know it. Radon is a naturally occuring element that seeps from the ground all over the country, it was occuring long long long before fracking ever started.

They will look for anything to blame on fracking. we had radon checked in our house when it was built 20 years ago, before there was any fracking wells anywhere around here and we had radon then.
 
....I kinda thought our overall discussion was regarding fossil fuels, Alanm ... I was simply reminding you of your positions on them. And this statement .... "some dead fish in a stream doesnt constitute the death of the planet from coal ash" is humorous. Again, we're talking about fossil fuel waste and what's being done with it. I guess a regular cough & shortness of breath wouldn't warrant you visiting your doctor to see if its lung cancer, in a state ranked second highest in radon, either, huh? I just know you're not as simple minded and naïve as you portray yourself. I gave you a link to a study in Pennsylvania that has determined that the high radon gases your state has is a primary cause of lung cancer. You DO KNOW that your state has the second highest emittance of radon gases, right? You do know that the studies indicate the high amount of fracking in your state is a likely cause of that, right? And this doesn't create any suspicions on your part regarding the safety hazards of fossil fuels. Maybe you don't even admit that natural gas is a fossil fuel .... ???

....Maybe you can make some sense out of these articles, Alanm ... do THESE tell you anything? This CEO of EXXON makes millions off of fracking, but when they start fracking near HIS property ... well, just read on. And ask yourself WHY he would object it being near HIS property!? Maybe one of your "bobblehead" friends has an opinion on it. Who knows!
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickung...but-frack-it-in-his-own-backyard-and-he-sues/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/02/22/exxon-mobil-tillerson-ceo-fracking/5726603/
But first, you gotta pull your head out .........View attachment 1063737 .........
I recently saw an article that they measured the radon levels at 34 fracking sites and the kevels coming from the ground were very low. Maybe the fact that housing over the last 10 years has gotten so air tight that radon is building up inside easier than it had in the past.

I am not convinced that fracking is the cause of any elevated levels of radon until it can be proven.

As far as the CEO not wanting a fracking well near his house....i dont blame him. I wish they all were a little farther from housing. The one near me is about 1/2 mile away and when they started fracking the noise is irratating and it lasts around the clock until the drilling and fracking is complete. ours is now pulling gas and i dont here anything. So from that aspect its not good.
 
....Yes, radon gas is a natural gas that seeps from the ground, its just that fracking helps release that radon gas and is one reason why your state leads the way in radon issues. By the way, fracking also releases methane gas into the atmosphere ... bunches of it, and is thought (by a large majority of the scientists studying it) to be a contributor to the violent climate changes we are currently experiencing. There are hundreds (and growing every day) of abandoned fracking stations across the nation (PA & TX at the top of the list) that are leaking methane gas. Methane filtering vents are suppose to capture these gases and burn them off, however, that's not the case. Also, note that in Texas, they are fracking right on top of one of the primary aquifers in the US. Even though the fracking takes place thousands of feet below the aquifers, is it worth the risk in poisoning these greatly depended on fresh water sources to obtain natural gas below them? I don't think so, bub!
....Here's more info supporting my positions on this, however, I don't expect a polarized individual, like yourself, to even consider this as possible. Thing is, its not happening someplace else, Alanm, its happening in YOUR STATE ... you folks living there are the ones that will be affected with the LIES & false info you're receiving that allows these companies to live off the citizens of your state. Once its all over, you'll have less than what you started with, and the companies that enriched themselves off you will shoot you the "bird" and go someplace else. I'm simply trying to make you aware to what's really going on, and hoping you'll investigate it on your own.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/20/fracking-wells-pennsylvania-leaking-methane
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/24/water-fracking-pennsylvania/2452023/

....One last comment, and I'm done with you on this topic ... IF fracking was soooooo safe, why would a Republican run state government (NC) pass a law classifying the chemicals these fracking companies (Koch Bros. a major contributor in NC) are pumping into the ground, and why would a CEO of a major oil company that is profiting from fracking, file a lawsuit to stop fracking near his property? Let's face it, you simply don't wish to have your lifestyle interrupted or inconvenienced regardless of what the facts say. Maybe, if you push really hard, just maybe you can bury your head even further up your ass for the next decade or so.
pic-Ostrich-ItWorks.jpg ...GIF_GrouchoMarx.gif.."How's the view down there? Gotta smell better than your ass."
 
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Yeah, I guess 60 minutes fabricated their stories ... and the coal ash that they found in the rivers of NC that killed all those fish ... that wasn't the cause of the fish dying ... it was old age, right? You are one narrow minded lad, and if you have an engineering degree its not pertinent to this subject, and I'm starting to believe if you have an engineering degree its a fabricated one from sitting around a toy train track, with an engineer cap on, calling yourself an "engineer" ... toot, toot! ;)
60 minutes. Yeah we know all about how truthful they can be.
 
we know all about how truthful they can be
....Do we? Care to elaborate a bit? Or do you just toss empty sarcasm & rhetoric and move on like so many here do? I happen to think 60 Minutes is a very credible source of news stories. And when they make mistakes, they address them at the end of their program.
....Is 20/20 in that category as well? I have several by them ... what about the NY Times, Newsweek, USAToday ... any of those qualify on your list of acceptable sources? Or maybe I should use GRIT, or MAD Magazine or some tabloid. Anything acceptable to you? What are they?
....OR, have you bought into the "all media sources are biased liars but the ones that agree with me" ? Maybe "bobblehead h-h" can suggest some reliable media sources for us to read on fracking.
 
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I hate to say it, but I half to somewhat agree with Mac on the Fracking. I don't know about the Radon stuff and although it is a cheap way to recover more oil and gas, I don't like the idea. I also don't think the steep increase in sinkholes the past 10 years is just a "coincidence".

Fracking has been around since the 1950's but wasn't until the late 90's - early 2000's it started being used heavy. There is a lot of differing EQ data out there but all seem to agree that there has been a steep rise in deadly Quakes in the past 10 years.
Earthquake-chart.jpg

Germany has band Fracking - indefinitely.

There is one good thing that has come from Fracking - it is one of the main reasons the Saudi's have reduced the cost of oil. They hope to put Fracking out of business as our dependency on foreign oil hasn't decreased that much and with lower oil prices, Fracking just isn't sustainable. The raising gas prices is what caused the fracking boom in the first place.

However all this talk about fracking and global warming, in my opinion, takes a back seat to a more immediate problem that no one really has an answer for, and no one wants to talk about. Plastics.
th


Global warming - true or not - is irrelevant to the fact that we need to clean up our act.
 
I hate to say it, but I half to somewhat agree with Mac on the Fracking.
Yeah, I truly bet you do HATE IT ... gif_Yellowball-JerkingOff.gif

More Pennsylvania news, Alanm ... you should REALLY REALLY read this one ... its in YOUR BACK YARD. But I'm sure you'll say its only from a very unreliable source ... the NY Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/magazine/fracking-amwell-township.html

Oh, and another unreliable source ... FactCheck.org
http://www.factcheck.org/2016/12/more-false-claims-about-fracking/
 
However all this talk about fracking and global warming, in my opinion, takes a back seat to a more immediate problem that no one really has an answer for, and no one wants to talk about. Plastics.
Plastics are petroleum based products; most all are non bio-degradable, but they are very recyclable. My entire family spends 2 days a year participating in our state cleanup of our rivers and lakes for this very purpose.
 
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Plastics are petroleum based products; most all are non bio-degradable, but they are very recyclable. My entire family spends 2 days a year participating in our state cleanup of our rivers and lakes for this very purpose.

There is not a lot out there that isn't recyclable, or at least re-usable. Even the stuff that says "do not recycle" is recyclable, the recycle center just doesn't want it or they are not equip to recycle it. However the manufactures of these products don't want us to recycle, they want us to buy new. Again, follow the money trail and you will see the real problems behind recycling.

Changing the mind set starts with us -
My local trash company first gave me a 95 gallon trash container - 95 gallons! I called and got them to bring me a 65 gallon can, the smallest they had. I thought who in the hell has 95 gallons of trash every week? Even when both our k|ds were living at home we didn't fill a 95 gallon can! We don't even fill the 65 gallon can half way each week. But on trash day everyone has their can just stuffed full, some even have 2 or 3 - 95 gal cans just packed. The main reason is becasue we recycle, so do the neighbors who now share the trash pick up with us and between the two of us we still do not fill the 65 gallon can each week. Growing up my parents on had 2 - 40 gal cans and the trash man came once a month! Today k|ds are not being raised to reduce waste. We are moving into a "just by new" attitude with our youth with throw-a-way electronics. The lack of respect for their own property let alone others is very apparent in today's society. I have had only 3 smart phones in the past 9 years. I currently have the Galaxy S6 and probably wont upgrade for another year or two. Some younger adults I know are on their 15th+ in less than 5 years. I guess they haven't figured out that sticking it in their back pocket and then sitting down is not good for the screen, but instead of fixing it they go buy a new one. Or maybe they think they need the latest and greatest phones.

I also got upset when I purchased some new Christmas lights for the yard. A 6 foot string of LED lights, rolled up and would have fit nicely in a 3x3x4 box. The box was 6 x 5 x 16 tall! Just empty space to make the package look fancy. At least it was cardboard and not plastic.

I guess my whole point is that I blame people as a whole for the majority of pollution. Yes the big companies pump out product with little to no regard for what it does to the environment - but they are only following a demand, our demand. It upsets me more that we the people are not demanding better and refusing to buy wasteful products. We should demand environmental friendly products and packaging, repairable products, and longer lasting products, but instead we demand cheaper faster. If we as a consumer changes our mindset we can ******* a change in the manufacturing process. Instead most simply sit on their hands and blame congress for not taking action.
 
Changing the mind set starts with us -
....This is concerning ... everything you posted in #352 I agree with; this shouldn't happen; we're suppose to be polarized opposites. :confused:
....We ARE now living in a society of conveniences ... we don't even have to get up out of our chairs if we so choose as we're becoming so sedentary. But, our actions, or rather inactions, create wastes, and affect more than just ourselves; it is one reason my wife & I encourage our ******* to take part in lots of social activities and why we are continually planning family functions. We really are trying to avoid allowing our ******* to become complacent with too much "idle time". Its challenging, but we get compliments from various adults all the time on how well behaved and involved our family is with each other.
....I'm glad you and I can find something we have common ground agreement; it all really starts at home, I think. Eight or so years ago we had new neighbors move in next door. They rarely, if ever, used their recycle trash can. One day my neighbor saw my wife and me working in our compost pile at the back of our property and he came over to compliment our green grass fescue. I pointed at the compost pile and said "this is where I get the nutriments for my grass, right here" and then we got off on recycling. Now he uses his recycle can AND has his own compost pile. I wish we could convince Alanm to reassess his opinion on some of these environment issues. You never know, however, maybe he will.
 
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