Libertarians

Andrea38 you are trying to talk to someone that has his own "twisted" version of the facts.... nice guy.... just full of *******

he can only read or decipher from the republican playbook
 
Andrea38 you are trying to talk to someone that has his own "twisted" version of the facts.... nice guy.... just full of *******

he can only read or decipher from the republican playbook

Regretfully, too many people of one party think everyone in the other party is totally evil or totally stupid. Most of the issues we face are very complex.
 
The WMD question was what put a sense of urgency to the situation. While Saddam Hussein was a monster (as was Hafez al Assad), I have a feeling these monsters knew how to keep radical Islamists in check....by destroying their families on village wide scales. Do we want such monsters in charge or the destabilization that follows their demises?
Difficult decision. Obviously P u t i n has made his position on this known by supporting Hafez's *******.
There is a certain logic to despots. Saddam kept the opposition in check by being ruthless. The problem is any opposition is used to the ******* so when the despot is gone the various opposing factions can be difficult or impossible to control. Despots like Saddam Hussein need to be removed, but no one has come up with a good plan about what to do afterward.
 
Despots like Saddam Hussein need to be removed, but no one has come up with a good plan about what to do afterward

looks like they have the answer now..... it is going to be a suburb of iran!
Saddam had been there for years and we tolerated it and turned a blind eye... until he went into Kuwait and Sr. had to step in......as for Jr.... Saddam made a comment about payback that offended Jr... and he wanted to show him... with our ******* and money!
 
Andrea38 you are trying to talk to someone that has his own "twisted" version of the facts.... nice guy.... just full of *******

he can only read or decipher from the republican playbook
I find that Tea Partiers and the far left tend to be very intolerant of any opinion that doesn't agree with their particular dogma. Andrea38's opinion has validity and is hardly from the "Republican playbook" Might I suggest to go to your "Happy Place" and come back when you can debate without personal attacks
 
looks like they have the answer now..... it is going to be a suburb of iran!
Saddam had been there for years and we tolerated it and turned a blind eye... until he went into Kuwait and Sr. had to step in......as for Jr.... Saddam made a comment about payback that offended Jr... and he wanted to show him... with our ******* and money!
In both instances the U.S. intervened at the behest of the United Nations
 
Neither Bush nor Obama has sense of fiscal responsibility

The WMD question is really irrelevant to the argument. Saddam Hussein ignored and violated UN resolutions for about 13 years. If he had complied with the United Nations edicts the second was would have never happened

I don't really consider the WMD issue a "Lie", maybe "half truth". They did in fact find warheads ready to accept chemical weapons, they also found barrel after barrel of chemicals designed to go into said warheads. And we all know that Iraq had the Scud missiles that could be fitted with said warheads. Just becasue they didn't find one all assembled sitting on a launch pad doesn't mean he did have them. WMD is more than just Nukes. Remember, according to the left, WMD also includes an AK-47 and AR-15's :mstickle:

Like you said, Husseins failure to comply is what brought us into the war. I think the WMD thing was just pushed to gain support from the general public.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
 
I find that Tea Partiers and the far left tend to be very intolerant of any opinion that doesn't agree with their particular dogma. Andrea38's opinion has validity and is hardly from the "Republican playbook" Might I suggest to go to your "Happy Place" and come back when you can debate without personal attacks

whaaaaat?
I don't mind your opinion... it just doesn't go with what people have posted when you look it up on the net.... your "facts" are just opinions... express them all you want... and maybe someone will think they are right... I'm just showing you that you are wrong and you won't even take the time to read or learn the truth!
that is not very open minded !... you have your opinion and are just trying to push your opinion as facts... and that is not the case!.... come to think of it I even called you a nice guy!

of course the bobble head twins will chirp right in there with you on that

Might I suggest to go to your "Happy Place" and come back when you can debate without personal attacks
and pretty sure I didn't give a personal attack.... just saying you are full of ******* is not really... attacking.... actually I like arguing with you... just you bring up the same WRONG argument every time and won't look at what I have done the research on to prove you wrong!

In both instances the U.S. intervened at the behest of the United Nations

yes Bush Sr did... after they invaded Kuwait.... But Jr wanted to go in because of some comments Saddam had made... and if you remember Jr sent Colin Powell to the UN to sell the invasion.... lied to the world!
 
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How the Bush administration sold the Iraq war

As the Obama White House vigorously defends its policy of using drone strikes to ******* suspected terrorists—including in some cases American citizens—it invokes the findings of secret intelligence showing that the targets pose an “imminent” threat to the U.S.

But there’s a powerful reason to be perennially skeptical of such claims–and perhaps never more so than now, as the country approaches a sobering historic moment: the tenth anniversary of President George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq.

The war that began March 19, 2003, was justified to the country by alarming claims that Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and connections to al-Qaida terrorists—almost all of which turned out to be false. Some of the most senior officials in the U.S. government, including President Bush himself, Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, asserted these claims in public with absolute confidence, even while privately, ranking U.S. military officers and intelligence professionals were voicing their doubts. Hubris: The Selling of the Iraq War, a documentary special hosted by Rachel Maddow (and based on a book I co-authored with David Corn), provides new evidence that the dissent within the administration and military was even more profound and widespread than anybody has known until now.

“It was a shock, it was a total shock–I couldn’t believe the vice president was saying this,” Gen. Anthony Zinni, the former commander in chief of U.S. Central Command, told me in an interview for the documentary. Zinni, who had access to the most sensitive U.S. intelligence on Iraq, was on a stage in Nashville, Tennessee, receiving an award from the Veteran of Foreign Wars on August 26, 2002, when he heard the vice president launch the opening salvo in the Bush administration’s campaign to generate public support for an invasion. “Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction,” Cheney said. “There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies and against us.” Zinni, sitting right next to Cheney’s lectern, says he “literally bolted” when he heard the vice president’s comments. “In doing work with the CIA on Iraq WMD [weapons of mass destruction], through all the briefings I heard at Langley, I never saw one piece of credible evidence that there was an ongoing program.” He recounts going to one of those CIA briefings and being struck by how thin the agency’s actual knowledge of Iraqi weapons programs was. “What I was hearing [from Bush administration officials] and what I knew did not jive,” Zinni says.

In the documentary, many of those who were sources for the book “Hubris” appear on camera for the first time. One of them, Mark Rossini, was then an FBI counter-terrorism agent detailed to the CIA. He was assigned the task of evaluating a Czech intelligence report that Mohammed Atta, the lead 9/11 hijacker, had met with an Iraqi intelligence agent in Prague before the attack on the World Trade Towers. Cheney repeatedly invoked the report as evidence of Iraqi involvement in 9/11. “It’s been pretty well confirmed that he [Atta] did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April,” Cheney said on Meet the Press on Dec. 9, 2001. But the evidence used to support the claim–a supposed photograph of Atta in Prague the day of the alleged meeting—had already been debunked by Rossini. He analyzed the photo and immediately saw it was bogus: the picture of the Czech “Atta” looked nothing like the real terrorist. It was a conclusion he relayed up the chain, assuming he had put the matter to rest. Then he heard Cheney endorsing the discredited report on national television. “I remember looking at the TV screen and saying, ‘What did I just hear?’ And I–first time in my life, I actually threw something at the television because I couldn’t believe what I just heard,” Rossini says.

Cheney, like most other senior Bush administration officials, declined to be interviewed for Hubris. One who did talk to the filmmakers was Douglas Feith, former undersecretary of the defense for policy under Donald Rumsfeld and an ardent defender of the war. Feith explains the strategic thinking that drove the administration decision to invade. “The idea was to take actions after 9/11 that would so shock state supporters of terrorism around the world that we might be able to get them to change their policies regarding support for terrorism and pursuit of weapons of mass destruction,” he says in the film.

But documents that have been declassified in recent years show that Bush administration officials weren’t interested in changing Saddam’s policies: they wanted him gone and were determined to launch a war to achieve that. The chronology also reveals that Saddam was in their crosshairs even before 9/11. The very afternoon of September 11, 2001, Rumsfeld met in the Pentagon with top aides. As his handwritten notes written by one of his aides at the meeting show, Rumsfeld asked for the “best info fast..judge whether good enough [to] hit S.H. [Saddam Hussein] @ same time—not only UBL [Osama bin Laden].” Rumsfeld also tasked “Jim Haynes [the Pentagon’s top lawyer] to talk w/ PW [Paul Wolfowitz] for additional support [for the] connection w/ UBL.” Before being presented with any evidence linking Saddam to al-Qaida, Rumsfeld was already looking for ways to use the World Trade Center attacks to justify taking out the Iraqi leader.

By late November, Rumsfeld was meeting with Gen. Tommy Franks, who succeeded Zinni as commander of the Centcom, to plot the “decapitation” of the Iraqi government, according to the now declassified talking points from the session (shown on television for the first time in the documentary). The talking points suggest Rumsfeld and his team were grappling with a tricky issue: “How [to] start?” the war. In other words, what would the pretext be? Various scenarios were outlined: “US discovers Saddam connection to Sept. 11 attack or to anthrax attacks?” reads one of them. “Dispute over WMD inspections?” reads another. “Start now thinking about inspection demands.”

These talking points make it clearer than ever that Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and others were determined–probably from the moment they came into office–to invade Iraq. Paul Pillar–then one of the CIA’s top terrorism analysts—says in the documentary that the 9/11 attacks “made it politically possible for the first time to persuade the American people to break a tradition of not launching offensive wars.” But to achieve the goal, secret intelligence was twisted, massaged, and wildly exaggerated. “It wasn’t a matter of lying about this or lying about that,” Pillar says. “But rather—through the artistry of speechwriters and case-presenters—conveying an impression to the American people that certain things were true.” But those things were not true. It’s worth watching to see how it was done.
 
We supported Trump even though he was not our first choice. Our party nominated Johnson again who is not a Libertarian anymore. He's gone full liberal
 
I saw this post's headline and as being a Liberterian I thought let me see what this is about.
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Yes Libertarians do want to "shrink government down to a size we could drown it in a bathtub".
I like that statement alot, the less we have lazy Government workers sucking up US Tax payers dollars doing things to hurt the average US citizen the better our country would be and the deficit and Government expenditures would come down considerably.
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~BBB76

I want to point out that many corporations have grown so powerful as to be governmental themselves. Just as most people want governmental protection from physical assault and robbery, some may also see a need for such protection from economic bullying...i.e. minimum wage, etc. Further, should such corporations be free to contaminate the environment at will? Also, some people just feel they can't be bothered seeing people who can't take care of themselves starving in the streets or bringing up their ******* in such a way as to propagate their squalor through the generations. Hence social programs a la the Johnson Administration (Lyndon, of course). It's called mercy and, I think, is a beneficial evolutionary trait (unlike intelligence> wisdom). Of course, the help we give to others should be designed to help them help themselves.
 
I want to point out that many corporations have grown so powerful as to be governmental themselves. Just as most people want governmental protection from physical assault and robbery, some may also see a need for such protection from economic bullying...i.e. minimum wage, etc

afraid it's to late for that... or so it seems everything he has done so far is in favor of big biz

BTW where you been? you haven't been around for a while
 
afraid it's to late for that... or so it seems everything he has done so far is in favor of big biz

BTW where you been? you haven't been around for a while

Big Biz vs. "the Little Guys"...many of whom ironically depend on Big Biz. We need to steer a suitably moderate course....and it's difficult to know where best to draw the lines so as not to stifle individual freedom unduly while protecting those others mostly so that their children will have a chance at something better.

(I'm usually here for frivolity; not serious comment. But someone commented here...it showed up on my alerts....and being in the mood, I commented on the pro-libertarian comment made above.)
 
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