Convention of States

Explain the process of the rigorous vetting.
The constitutional process by which all US presidents are selected, culminating in the decision of the Electoral College. Unless you can identify how that process failed in 2016, then Trump was elected just as Obama was elected, just as every president has been elected since 1789; with a functional system and although sometimes tested (Bush/Gore) a peaceful transfer of power. Because this is the agreed upon presidential selection process, then every president selected by it -- is by definition -- qualified.

You have already stated that Trump is "horribly unqualified". Unless you provide evidence that the system malfunctioned, then that is merely your opinion -- and it flies in the face of 169,000,000 US registered voters who accept the constitutional process.

If you disagree with the constitutional process, then go out and scream at the sky.
 
Was Trump elected in accordance with constitutional procedure?
actually no he was not, he solicited, accepted foreign help in a federal election. he has violated the emolument clause of the constitution, obstructed justice so no he is not in step with the constitution.
 
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The constitutional process by which all US presidents are selected, culminating in the decision of the Electoral College. Unless you can identify how that process failed in 2016, then Trump was elected just as Obama was elected, just as every president has been elected since 1789; with a functional system and although sometimes tested (Bush/Gore) a peaceful transfer of power. Because this is the agreed upon presidential selection process, then every president selected by it -- is by definition -- qualified.

You have already stated that Trump is "horribly unqualified". Unless you provide evidence that the system malfunctioned, then that is merely your opinion -- and it flies in the face of 169,000,000 US registered voters who accept the constitutional process.

If you disagree with the constitutional process, then go out and scream at the sky.
That is not vetting. You stated he was rigorously vetted. How so? Hint: The electoral process is not vetting.
 
That is not vetting. You stated he was rigorously vetted. How so? Hint: The electoral process is not vetting.
It is the process by which the US vets candidates and selects presidents. The will of the people (democracy), combined with the wisdom of representatives (Republic) ensure the process is sound. Trump endured that process. Trump prevailed. Trump is therefore qualified. (If you meet the basic requirements, you are welcome to give it a go yourself.)

You have yet to explain how that process failed or why Trump is "horribly unqualified". If you continue to coyly respond with questions, I'll ignore it.
 
It is the process by which the US vets candidates and selects presidents. The will of the people (democracy), combined with the wisdom of representatives (Republic) ensure the process is sound. Trump endured that process. Trump prevailed. Trump is therefore qualified. (If you meet the basic requirements, you are welcome to give it a go yourself.)

You have yet to explain how that process failed or why Trump is "horribly unqualified". If you continue to coyly respond with questions, I'll ignore it.
That's not vetting. That is choosing. And obviously the "representatives" had no "wisdom" as they still chose a verifiable serial liar to be president, something Hamilton would have been very disappointed about.

It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station... A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations.

Being a verifiable serial liar is the exact opposite of a quality "adapted to the station". The electoral college failed us.
 
That's not vetting. That is choosing. And obviously the "representatives" had no "wisdom" as they still chose a verifiable serial liar to be president, something Hamilton would have been very disappointed about.

It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station... A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations.

Being a verifiable serial liar is the exact opposite of a quality "adapted to the station".

Totally incorrect. For example, lying to our enemies about US troop movements and war-fighting strategy, is an adaptation most desirable in the Commander in Chief. Furthermore Hamilton does not address truthfulness at all. You are imagining he implies that.

The electoral college failed us.
You neglect to define or offer any evidence of what constitutes a "serial liar" and then you offer only the opinion of one framer, which, as pointed out, does not address truthfulness at all.

Furthermore, to justify your theory, it is now incumbent on you to prove that other presidents were legitimately elected because they always told the truth. Unless of course, they all lie and the process has failed every time, in which case you have no argument that Trump is any different.
 
It is the process by which the US vets candidates and selects presidents. The will of the people (democracy), combined with the wisdom of representatives (Republic) ensure the process is sound. Trump endured that process. Trump prevailed. Trump is therefore qualified. (If you meet the basic requirements, you are welcome to give it a go yourself.)

You have yet to explain how that process failed or why Trump is "horribly unqualified". If you continue to coyly respond with questions, I'll ignore it.
one question for you, what is it that you think a convention would rectify, in what do you think the federal government has over reached?
 
Being a verifiable serial liar is the exact opposite of a quality "adapted to the station".

Virtually all of us in a position of responsibility, are obliged to modify or withhold the truth everyday, because we are are charged with protecting company secrets and business strategy. For a high-ranking statesman, it is 1000 times more important. Modifying the truth is called "diplomacy".

Your entire premise against Trump (and apparently, lying is all you've got) is based on your own misunderstanding of responsibility.
 
Totally incorrect. For example, lying to our enemies about US troop movements and war-fighting strategy, is an adaptation most desirable in the Commander in Chief. Furthermore Hamilton does not address truthfulness at all. You are imagining he implies that.


You neglect to define or offer any evidence of what constitutes a "serial liar" and then you offer only the opinion of one framer, which, as pointed out, does not address truthfulness at all.

Furthermore, to justify your theory, it is now incumbent on you to prove that other presidents were legitimately elected because they always told the truth. Unless of course, they all lie and the process has failed every time, in which case you have no argument that Trump is any different.
Your mental gymnastics are impressive. I will give you that.

Go look up how many verifiable lies he has told since becoming president. And then ask yourself if becoming president is why Trump has become a serial liar or if it is a character flaw? We both know the answer.

And trying to blur the lines between troop movement lies and the type of lies Trump tells is a sad tactic.

Hamilton didn't mention truthfulness? LOL. Sure. So your position is truthfulness in not a "quality adapted to the station"?
 
Virtually all of us in a position of responsibility, are obliged to modify or withhold the truth everyday, because we are are charged with protecting company secrets and business strategy. For a high-ranking statesman, it is 1000 times more important. Modifying the truth is called "diplomacy".

Your entire premise against Trump (and apparently, lying is all you've got) is based on your own misunderstanding of responsibility.
More mental gymnastics. Modifying the truth. Comedy Bronze.

So being a verifiable serial liar isn't enough for you?
 
Totally incorrect. For example, lying to our enemies about US troop movements and war-fighting strategy, is an adaptation most desirable in the Commander in Chief. Furthermore Hamilton does not address truthfulness at all. You are imagining he implies that.


You neglect to define or offer any evidence of what constitutes a "serial liar" and then you offer only the opinion of one framer, which, as pointed out, does not address truthfulness at all.

Furthermore, to justify your theory, it is now incumbent on you to prove that other presidents were legitimately elected because they always told the truth. Unless of course, they all lie and the process has failed every time, in which case you have no argument that Trump is any different.
It is faulty reasoning on your part to think I need to prove that other presidents were legitimately elected because they always told the truth. I never asserted that other presidents were always truthful. But as far as we know, there has never been as an accomplished liar in the Oval Office as Trump.

And you are also mistaken in your assertion that I believe Trump is illegitimate. He was indeed elected by the process in place, Russian interference withstanding. My assertion is that system failed the American people by delivering Trump, a verifiable serial liar, into office.
 
Your mental gymnastics are impressive. I will give you that.
It's always nice to be appreciated.

So your position is truthfulness in not a "quality adapted to the station"?

Geez, what do you do...drive a forklift in a warehouse? In positions of responsibility, truthfulness is a weighted, measured quality that must be "adapted to the station" for the security of the organization.

But have it your way. Trumpster is "horribly unqualified" as a "serial liar". OK then. There are 44 other prezzies. Pick a few and prove that they were qualified because they always were truthful. Your theory is only valid if you can do that. It is incumbent on you to provide us with a degree of truthfulness that meets presidential requirements. Did Hamilton make a chart for that?
 
It is faulty reasoning on your part to think I need to prove that other presidents were legitimately elected because they always told the truth.
Actually, yes you do. By declaring Trump unqualified strictly for lying, you made a high degree of truthfulness an essential presidential quality.

But as far as we know, there has never been as an accomplished liar in the Oval Office as Trump.
Actually, no one knows that. You just made it up.

He was indeed elected by the process in place

Ding! One point for Zwing!

My assertion is that system failed the American people by delivering Trump, a verifiable serial liar, into office.
Once again, your assertion requires a graduated scale for validity.
  • How much truthiness is okie dokie prezzie material?
  • What about "Read my lips, no new taxes"?
  • How about getting your cigar polished under the Lincoln desk by a starry-eyed chubb-ster, and then saying "Monica? Neva heard aher. Who bitch dat is?"

It's almost 2020. How are we supposed to vet our new prezzie, if you won't tell us how honest they have to be?
 
one question for you, what is it that you think a convention would rectify, in what do you think the federal government has over reached?
Not really sure. Not my thread.
I suppose passing a federal ban on Joe Biden ever becoming a Girl Scout leader would be too much for a Convention of States.

Maybe we should start smaller and reign in the EPA and their bullying of small land owners.
 
That wasn't "the primary reason." There were 2 reasons and I already addressed the failed reason. I do happen to agree with the thought of equal representation though.
There were actually more than two reasons, but the primary reason was the structure of the executive branch with respect to its source of power as spelled out by Madison in Federalist 39. Note that Madison had first hand knowledge as an actual member of the committee of eleven on postponed matters which came up with the electoral college mechanism for presidential selection....Hamilton who you cited was not a member of that committee.
 
wrong again there jayhawk....we have been through this before


The electoral college exists because of racism and slavery and only because of racism and slavery for emphasis. The slaves were not allowed to vote and could not be counted in a direct election. Not counting the votes of slaves would have cost some Southern states 40% of their voting strength.
Why was the Electoral College started? - Quora
www.quora.com/Why-was-the-Electoral-College-started




The racial history of the Electoral College - PBS NewsHour
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-racial-history-of-the-electoral-college-and...
READ NEXT: Electoral College is ‘vestige’ of slavery, say some Constitutional scholars. Though the framers could not foresee that by 1800, Thomas Jefferson, whose state of Virginia was the largest because of its 40 percent slave population, would beat out John Adams, who was opposed to slavery.


The Electoral College Was Born In Racism. Let’s Drop Out ...
https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2016/12/30/abolish-the-electoral-college-rich-barlow
Dec 30, 2016 · Madison proposed an early version of the Electoral College, which threaded the needle between democracy and racism by letting the slavocracy …


How the Electoral College Is Tied to Slavery and the Three ...
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/electoral-college-slavery-three-fifths-compromise-history
Oct 31, 2019 · It thrives in politics with systems that Americans rely on to elect leaders, like the electoral college, a process originally designed to protect the influence of white slave owners, which is ...




How the Electoral College Is Tied to Slavery and the Three-Fifths Compromise

White supremacy is systemic. It lives in policies like law-and-order policing and access to public goods and services. It thrives in politics with systems that Americans rely on to elect leaders, like the electoral college, a process originally designed to protect the influence of white slave owners, which is still used today to determine presidential elections.
At the Constitutional Convention in 1787, state delegates came together to draft what would become the U.S. Constitution, establishing the rule of law for the newly founded United States of America. The country, still in its infancy, had liberated itself from the colonial rule of Great Britain’s King George III in the American Revolution.

With George Washington presiding, the delegates discussed the current state of affairs among the 13 states governed under the Articles of Confederation, which was proving insufficient in maintaining federal governance among the states. At the urging of Virginia Delegate James Madison and others, they began to draft a new national constitution, which would design the role and power of the new government, including elections of head of state. But steeped in the throws of the slave trade, and a little less than 100 years before the Civil War, there was already a divide between the interests of northern and southern states.


The idea of a simple popular-vote election struck fear in delegates from slaveholding states because while their states boasted large populations, much of the populace was comprised of enslaved black people who could not vote. By contrast, northern states had smaller populations with a greater number of eligible voters (read: white, male, and generally property-owning).

The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes,” said Madison, who would later become the nation’s fourth president. “The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to the fewest objections.”

Fearful of being outnumbered, Madison pushed for the electoral college, and championed representative government by state as a solution. Seats in the House of Representatives would be based on population size, and delegates from slave-holding states sought to have slaves included in the count for total population. Those opposed recognized this would mean fewer seats from the smaller states.

And so the states made several compromises. The first, known as the Three-Fifths Compromise, was a racist, manipulative policy that outlined the rules for legislative representation and taxation of the states. It read, “Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.”

Enslaved black people, ordinarily only regarded as property, were declared three fifths of a person in order to strengthen the power of the white men who kept them in bondage. It would remain that way until the 14th Amendment granted citizenship to slaves in 1868.
The second compromise was the advent of the electoral college in deciding the general election. Instead of popular votes, electors would make selections on behalf of their states.

The way electors were chosen varied by state, but they were usually elected officials and party leaders, as is true today. The number of electors for each state was set to equal its total number of congressional representatives: two senators and however many representatives it had in the house. (In 1961, the District of Columbia would be awarded three electoral votes as well
 
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That's not vetting. That is choosing. And obviously the "representatives" had no "wisdom" as they still chose a verifiable serial liar to be president, something Hamilton would have been very disappointed about.

It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station... A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations.

Being a verifiable serial liar is the exact opposite of a quality "adapted to the station". The electoral college failed us.

the electoral college was...... they just like their state and federal representatives....are supposed to represent their constituents....this is the third time they have not represented the people they were supposed to....all three times it has benefitted the right....how odd?


  1. History
  2. politics
  3. These Presidents Won the Electoral College — But Not the Popular Vote
These Presidents Won the Electoral College — But Not the Popular Vote


But one idea that has popped up in the campaigns of Sen. Elizabeth Warren, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, Mayor Pete Buttigieg, Beto O’Rourke and others may be unexpected: changing or abolishing the Electoral College.

In some ways, it’s not actually surprising that more attention is being paid to the Electoral College. Two of the last three U.S. Presidents — Donald Trump and George W. Bush — were elected to their position without winning the popular vote. That’s possible because when Americans cast their ballots in a presidential election every four years, they’re not voting directly for President but rather for “electors” who promise to vote for a particular candidate. The electors from all the states come together to form the Electoral College and select the President. Because of the way the number of electors per state is determined, an individual vote from a sparsely populated state is worth more in the final count than a vote from a densely populated state, so it’s possible to win the Electoral College vote while losing the popular vote.

Some 2020 candidates argue that abolishing the Electoral College would bring the country closer to the ideal of “one person, one vote.” Proponents also argue that the process would increase voter participation, especially in states that are deeply red or blue, whereas some voters today are left feeling that their vote cannot affect the result.


 
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Yeah another great Dem idea - change the rules so the beanbrains in California and New York dictate who wins every election - NO THANKS !!!!!
 
Not really sure. Not my thread.
I suppose passing a federal ban on Joe Biden ever becoming a Girl Scout leader would be too much for a Convention of States.

Maybe we should start smaller and reign in the EPA and their bullying of small land owners.
how is the federal government bullying small land owners?
 
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